Wednesday, March 14, 2007

Adventures in Predestination

I am not an open theist. Open theism is the idea that the potentially omniscient God has intentionally set aside His foreknowledge for the time being so that we can have free will. To me, this is simply an Arminian counterpart to multiple point Calvinism, just as "this universe" think. It takes the beef of Calvinism with free will too seriously.

On the other hand, I don't quite get why it ticks so many conservatives off. In some cases, it's probably because the person in question confuses it with process theology (which involves the idea that God is evolving with the world). But, seriously, as far as taking the Bible literally, open theists take the Bible way literally.

"And God repented that He had made humanity" (Gen. 6:6)

Taken literally, this implies that God changed His mind. Open theists take this as it appears. And for this "take the Bible as it appears" approach, places like Huntington College fire a person? I feel sorry for these people. My advice to any budding open theists out there? Don't tell anyone. You're way too conservative for a liberal to hire you, and other conservatives have blacklisted you.

For me, God knew the Flood generation would do these things, and He knew what He would do in response, but He did not force humanity to behave as it did and there is a possible world in which humanity did not. For the Calvinist, neither the changing of His mind or the opportunity of humanity to do differently ever existed.

Now which of these interpretations is most biblical? Answer: the open theist's interpretation. The author of Genesis (I'll respect the text and listen to the fact that it nowhere tells who its author is), writing way before anyone understood omniscience the way we do, probably did think that God changed His mind here.

Now me, I believe that the flow of revelation on omniscience has continued beyond the days of Genesis. It is the consensus of Christendom that God knows all things. He cannot thus literally change His mind because He knew exactly what the Flood generation would do. But the statement, "he repented" is a true metaphor. It is a true expression of the value God assigned to the actions of the Flood generation. For me, God's script was written before the creation of the world outside of time, but He did not write this part of the script for humanity in time. For the multipoint Calvinist, God wrote the script for both Himself and humanity before the creation, before time. God is playing chess with Himself.

Of the three groups, only the first could authentically hold to sola scriptura at this point (but of course would have to abandon it once they moved beyond this verse). I have never claimed it, and the paleo-orthodox Calvinist system, once again, explodes in incoherence. The text itself here does not at all suggest their theology, so clearly it is something outside the text that is driving their appropriation of this text. I recognize these extra-scriptural elements, so I'm still coherent. They deny it, and their theology deconstructs.

But there are passages that, if taken at least in a superficially literal way, seem to imply a straightforward predestination without human choice. What about these passages? Since these are "controlling verses" for the multi-pointer, the Calvinist on these verses does not reinterpret them the way they do verses like Genesis 6:6.

And not only [this], but Rebecca also, having the bed of one man, Isaac our father. For not yet having been born, and not having done something good or bad, in order that the purpose of God according to election might remain not from works but from the One who calls, it was said to her, "The greater will serve the lesser, just as it is written, "I have loved Jacob, but Esau I hated."

What will we say then? There isn't injustice with God, is there? God forbid! For to Moses He says, "I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

So then it is not of the one who will nor of the one who runs but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharoah, "I have raised you up for this itself, so that I might demonstrate my power in you and so that I might proclaim my name in all the earth. So then He has mercy on the one He wills and He hardens the one whom He wills.

Then you will say to me, "Why then does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" O human, indeed, who are you who are accusing God? "The moulded won't say to the moulder, why have you made me this way, will it?" Or doesn't the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? And [what] if God bore with great patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction to demonstrate wrath and to make known His power and in order to make known the wealth of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He prepared for glory? (Romans 9:10-23).

Wow! Difficult verses! In fact, I have serious questions about your Christianity if you don't find these verses difficult. Why? Because they, at least on an isolated first read, sound as if they contradict the very essence of the gospel: "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Let's dig a little deeper here though. Like God repenting that He made humanity, there are strong reasons to be very careful about making this the controlling passage on your understanding of God.

1. What is the context?
The context is that Paul has been arguing throughout Romans that Gentiles can be justified before God without converting to Judaism, without engaging in works of law. You can see why a Jew would complain about Paul's theology: "I follow all these rules--they're in the Bible for goodness sakes Paul! Now you're telling me a Gentile can be okie dokie with God just by trusting in what God has done in Christ? That's not fair at all!"

Paul's answer? "Shut up, clay, God can do what He wants." If God wants to declare the Gentiles righteous on the basis of their faith, He's allowed because He's God.

Now I agree with this. Does the Calvinist? Can God give humans free will if He wants? What if God wanting to show His love for the world, gave everyone a chance to be saved? Could He do it? I say yes he could. The Calvinist says no. So I respond, but who are you, clay, to tell God "why have you acted thus?"

Could God have forgiven all humans by divine command, without any sacrifice at all if He wanted to? The Calvinist responds no. I respond, but who are you, clay to tell God what He can and cannot do?

My first point is that the multi-pointer has seized on the wrong point in interpretation. The right point is that God is allowed to will whatever He wills. The Calvinist, instead, seized on the point, "we cannot do whatever we will." My second is that the Calvinist use of this passage is incoherent, because in the end they do the same thing as the clay in a different way.

To be sure, Paul is using OT individuals to make his points (Pharoah, Jacob, Esau), but his point is not about individual predestination here. Paul's point is that God can let the Gentiles in if He wants to, period. He's God.

I deliberately ripped these verses from that context because that's what most Calvinist readers of this passage do. But now let's look at the verses that surround it. For example, the next verse after I left off reads:

"With regard to whom [vessels He prepared for glory] He also called us, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles, as also He says in Hosea, 'I will call the not my people, my people,' ... and Isaiah cries out about Israel, '... the remnant will be saved...'

What then will we say? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness received righteousness ... and Israel, who pursued a rule of righteousness, did not attain the rule.

Paul is thus not laying down a theology of individual predestination here, even if the passage raises those questions for us. Paul is arguing over the inclusion of the Gentiles into the people of God in the way God is including them.

2. When we place the "naughty verses" in the context of the whole of Romans 9-11, their entire tone changes. Is Paul arguing, "So, yeah, the Jews are toast because God has sovereignly decided to waste them"? God forbid. What is Paul's feeling toward them?

"Brothers, the good pleasure of my heart and petition to God about them is for salvation" (Rom. 10:1).

Notice that Paul does not treat their fate as fixed already here. The tone is one of wanting them to be saved, not of their destiny being fixed.

In fact, Paul believes the currently hardened will be saved (Rom. 11:26). Throughout Romans 11, the possibility of Israel's salvation, of being grafted back in, is present throughout. This does not at all fit the conclusion the multi-pointer usually takes from Romans 9, that God has set all these things in stone before the foundation of the world. Even those who are hardened can become unhardened!

This is not Calvinist theology.

3. Biblical predestination language functions biblically as a posteriori rather than a priori language.
Paul's writings would not say the things they say if predestination language functioned for Paul the way the multi-pointer thinks it does. If the Calvinist "language game" of predestination was Paul's game, then predestination language would have predictive force. We would expect Paul to give up on Israel, because their hardened hearts indicate God did not predestine them.

Certainly if Paul thought the way Calvin did, he would not say, "They haven't stumbled so as to fall have they? God forbid! But by their stumbling salvation [has come] to the Jews to make them jealous. But if their stumbling [was] wealth to the world and their defeat wealth to the Gentiles, how much more [wealth will be] their inclusion."

See, the predestined can be repredestined! How do we know God has hardened Pharaoh? Because we see a hardened Pharaoh. But a hardened Pharaoh can also become an unhardened Pharaoh.

Paul's arguments thus do not reflect the presuppositions of Augustine and Calvin. These theologians connected predestination to a prior determinism--they moved theoretically from before to after. Paul connects this it to a subsequent state of affairs--he moves practically from after to before. This is true of how he uses the language, despite the sound of his words in this part of Romans 9. Augustine is the one who connected before and after using logic. Paul's language of predestination, on the other hand, does not govern the rest of his theology. He does not logically follow some of the comments in this chapter through to a straightforward logical conclusion.

In the words of Inigo Mantoia of the Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Conclusion
In conclusion, however, I want to remind us that the entirety of Calvinist theology falls apart on one verse (actually, many verses, but who's counting?)

"If we continue to sin willfully after we have received a knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment."

If a person can have appropriated Christ's sacrifice, and then end up facing judgment, then it is possible for a saint not to persevere. But if a Christian might not persevere, then grace is resistable and election is not unconditional, in fact election is changable. And the Calvinist system, so admirable for its logic, unfortunately turns out not to be God's logic.

So in the words of 2 Peter 1:10, "So, brothers [and sisters], be diligent to make your calling and election firm, for if you do this, you will never stumble at some time." But if one's election can be unfirm, then I don't think that word means what you think it means.

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

Ken
Over the years everytime I think I have God figured out, how He operates and acts, He does something that messes up my theology. I like 5 pt Calvinism, it's logic and explanations, but I also realize that trying to pin God down to any theological system is like tracking his footprints in the ocean. Is this what you have been trying to say to OAW?

Anonymous said...

Ken,
Thanks for taking the time to think through and present this exegesis of an important passage in Romans, as well as commenting on its implications for the larger theological systems (particularly Calvinism). I've enjoyed reading your posts.

John Mark said...

It is generally understood that there is an unfolding revelation even though the canon is closed. The problem is, how do we arrive at conclusions? Can we ever say with certainty, "This is what the Church believes-about God, or sin, or free will, or predestination, etc.? Apparently not. I recall, if memory serves, that you said we must be dogmatic about nothing more than the creeds (am I correct on this?). The last time there was any agreement on theology was before Luther, and I realize I am being simplistic here. Too bad we can't all just trust the Pope to set us straight on what to believe:).
It is obvious to me that the task of doing theology is difficult, messy and often painful.
Thanks again for this series of posts.

Ken Schenck said...

Craig, I'm sure some of my motives for writing are pure, others impure, others therapy. I do not think for one minute that I will change OAW's mind on anything. Actually, I think I would probably like John Piper, from what I can tell.

So I've reflected today on the question, what do I want to come from this discussion. I've thought of two things.

1) I don't mind OAW's language toward me, although I would prefer him to skewer me with a smile (I doubt he was smiling). And since we all tend to picture God with our values, I picture God smiling sometimes when either OAW or me say outrageous things about Him that He just knows aren't true. ;-) I think He's big enough and secure enough to handle it.

But I do find some of OAW's language offensive in an unchristlike way, enough to make me genuinely wonder whether he is even genuinely converted. His reference to my God as effeminate, for example, I fear belies a demeaning and thus unchristlike attitude toward women. And the hateful comments toward gays do not pass the Parable of the Good Samaritan test. Inasmuch as these comments are fundamentally unchristian, I must combat and undermine them. 9-11 has sanctified hate for many Christians, but this simply won't pass any legitimate Christian canon, New Testament or otherwise.

2. Elements of this perspective has creeped into the Wesleyan Church and into the broader church, largely because the church has been more focused on feeling and evangelizing than on thinking. As a result, thinkers have inadvertantly borrowed from the Calvinist tradition as a thinking tradition, which indeed it is. I know some thinking Wesleyan pastors who probably don't even realize how much of their thinking is as much Reformed as truly Wesleyan. They just never were exposed to another thinking option.

I don't have much influence, but I have more than some. I am more resolved than ever to use my influence, not to be hateful toward Calvinists, but to undermine Calvinism at those points I believe lead to particularly unchristian consequences.

Ken Schenck said...

I hope that my fears are not true, your language does not truly reflect your heart. I take hope in your comment that most will be saved. But I fear an American Christianity where hate has become the Christian thing to do. I hear Christians seeing no contradiction in snide comments about blacks or about how we should bomb the entire Middle East and Christianity. The Piper concept of God facilitates these forms of hate because of how it redefines love.

Aaron said...

Hating evil or not, it's never ok to joke about those that are handicapped. your "down's syndrom choir" comment made me want to vomit.

"Cling to good" you say as you spew out comments like that?

Keith Drury said...

Thanks to BOTH of you for spending the time to have a good scrap--even when it bordered at time on a WWF match ;-) OAW you are a well-read good thinking guy who (IMO) fairly represent a multi-point Calvinism that I once got "campused" for holding myself when a college student. And, Ken, I think you have represented the Arminian-Wesleyan "objections" to that position well--we simply "don't buy it" and are open to be convinced but are still unconvinced. When it comes to Calvinism I remain an "unbeliever"--OAW has not yet convinced me.

But the rhetoric in this discussion has been exciting to follow and the arguments illustrate (to me, at least) the radical difference in the views of God, and the radically different approaches to scripture among the two ways of thinking. Nobody expected these two guys to solve this difference--their job is to expose the differences, and they have done that well I think.

I've not jumped in because I've "been there-done that" already. So, for me, reading along it has been more fun than the final four. Both teams have made a few three-pointers but "my team" won--but of course I already knew that when I started reading ;-)

Thanks again to both of you for the time and energy you contributed to all of us this last week! I have chosen to be Arminian-Wesleyan...unless, of course, I was chosen to be one. ;-)

Anonymous said...

First, we note in this recent post of Dr. Schenk’s entitled 'Adventures in Predestination' that he admits that Open Theism is an ‘Arminian counterpoint to multiple point Calvinism.’ It is refreshing to hear such an admission and from here on out I will be referring to Open Theism as ‘Consistent Arminianism.’ Perhaps at some later point Dr. Schenk will be kind enough to elaborate the differences between ‘consistent Arminianism’ and process theology.

Dr. Schenk in his sympathy with ‘consistent Arminianism’ cites (Gen. 6:6)

"And God repented that He had made humanity"

While neglecting passages like Numbers 23:19

19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Or passages where it is explicitly said of God that ‘there is no variation.’

Dr. Schenk continues to show his propensity to ignore the whole issue of the analogy of faith. A legitimate scholar would do one of three things with these passages.

a.) Embrace the contradiction
b.) Read the less clear passage in light of the more clear passage
c.) Read the more clear passage in light of the less clear passage

But instead our resident Scholar at Schenk’s thoughts decides just to ignore the other passages, thus apparently hoping that nobody else will notice their existence.

In responding to Schenk’s delivery on ‘Adventures in Predestination’ we should also note that no Biblical Christian (aka – Calvinist) believes that God forced humanity to behave as it did before the flood. The Biblical Christian believes that all freely chose their own behavior. Surely the God who scripture teaches ‘declares the end from the beginning’ predestined all of this but the predestinating of it all doesn’t deny man’s culpability for his sin. As I have said countless times, unregenerate man is dead to wanting God but very alive to not wanting God and so because he retains his natural ability (though not his moral ability) to choose God he remains responsible.

Dr. Schenk makes up this distinction about God writing a Script outside of time but not writing the script in time for humanity. The interesting thing in this is that this Script that is written outside of time ends up being followed every time, all the time by humanity. God knows what is going to happen because of this Script written outside of time and humanity consistently follows this script to the tees. If that is the way that Dr. Schenk wants to speak about predestination that is fine with me since that is exactly what we have here, all the script talk notwithstanding. God has this script. Humans have never done anything besides follow the Script. Human remain responsible.
Voila … Predestination.

Indeed, this fits perfectly with the way that I explain predestination to those struggling with the concept. I ask them if Frodo was free to give the ring to Gandalf in Tolkien’s book. They respond both ‘yes’ and ‘no.’ From Frodo’s vantage point he was free but of course from the vantage point of the one who wrote the Script outside of Frodo’s time Frodo wasn’t Free.

Dr. Schenk also appeals to ‘true metaphor’ but he hasn’t yet told us how it is that he gets to ‘true metaphor’ if God is supra-rational. I reminded him earlier that in order to have analogy or metaphor there has to be a rational correspondence between those things that are being spoken of analogously. But of course if God is supra-rational then all possibilities to speak of God propositionally in any sense are impossible even when appealing to metaphors and analogies.

In this recent post of Dr. Schenk’s he continues to reveal that he does not understand that Scripture is written by one author. He insists that the Biblical system explodes in incoherence but he refuse to recognize that for the Biblical Christian we read the Scripture as one text and not as a collection of texts. We fully recognize the progress of revelation but the fact that the author of Genesis may not have understood what later readers of Scripture, with more revelation, doesn’t mean that we have to accept what he thought he knew at the time as the definition of sola scriptura. We have the duty and responsibility as those upon whom the ‘ages have come’ to examine all of Scripture in light of all of Scripture and so show ourselves to be practioners of Sola Scriptura. In the end that something that is outside the text that is driving our appropriation of this text is other texts of Holy Writ. We are guilty of believing in the analogy of faith.

Now we turn to Dr. Schenk’s hackneyed treatment of Romans 9.

1.) Dr. Schenk appeals to the word ‘World’ in John 3:16 as being contradictory to Romans 9. Obviously the good doctor is suggesting that the word ‘World’ in the text refers to ‘each and every individual that has ever lived.’ The problem with this ‘exegesis’ is that the word World does not universally operate that in Scripture. In Col. 1:6 for example Paul can tell the Colossians that the Gospel has come into all the World. Does Dr. Schenk believe that the Apostle held that the Gospel had gone to each and every individual that was living at the time the Apostle wrote this?

2.) Dr. Schenk asks us to look at the context. The Apostle has been writing of Predestination and election in Romans 8. Romans 8 ends with one of the greatest texts for perseverance of the saints in all of Scripture and that perseverance of the saints is posited squarely upon the idea of predestination and election. Now as the Apostle turns to chapter 9 the issue of his sundered kinsmen arises.

3.) As the Apostle turns to this subject what is before him here is not the inclusion of the Gentiles so much as the exclusion of much of Israel. Why is this? What accounts for this? The answer the Apostle gives is the distinguishing work of God in predestination. Predestination accounts for why the Gentiles are in (Romans 9:24-25) and it accounts for why not ‘all of Israel is of Israel.’

4.) The Calvinist does not agree that God gives humans libertarian free will but he does so, not as one who is ordering God around in matters of His concern but rather only as those who are recognizing what God has said throughout Scripture. God has said that men were dead in trespasses and sins. God has said that the carnal mind is at warfare with God. God has said that the natural man receives not the things of God. God has said that people don’t hear the voice of Jesus because they are not His sheep. God has said that He has hidden the truth from the wise and prudent but revealed it to babes. So, despite Dr. Schenk’s histrionics Biblical Christians are not telling God what He can and can’t do but rather we are merely publishing what He has said.

What Dr. Schenk does, quite to the contrary, is to fit perfectly with the hypothetical foil of the Apostle Paul in Romans 9. Dr. Schenk like Paul’s hypothetical person is screaming that God is not fair. Our response to Dr. Schenk is the same as the Apostle Paul’s, ‘who are you O man to question God?”

Dr. Shenk’s reply is seemingly,

“I am a Ph.D. who studied under Dunn and you must exonerate yourself to me and my notions of fair play.”

And like Atlas, God shrugs.

5.) Dr. Schenk then compounds his error by asking; who is the Calvinist that he should tell God that he can’t forgive by divine command without sacrifice. And the almost speechless Calvinist (speechless because he can’t believe the depths which inanity can reach) responds by saying that, “I am only saying what my Master has said when He said that ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission of Sin.” If I say that God cannot forgive the way that you are saying He can I am only agreeing with God against you. Please forgive me for believing that when a rational God speaks to rational men He means what He says.

6.) We heartily agree that God can will whatever He wants to will that is consistent with what He has said about Himself. Does Dr. Schenk really want to argue that if God wants to lie then who are we to reply against Him? The only time we are not to reply against God is when God has made clear in His revelation something we are trying to protest against. THAT is the point of the Apostle’s teaching and not that God doesn’t have to act consistent with what He has revealed about Himself.

I can’t believe that I really have to argue this against somebody who is teaching New Testament.

7.) I quite agree with Dr. Schenk that there is a corporate aspect to Romans 9 but Dr. Schenk’s problem is that he doesn’t seem to realize that one can’t get to omelets without eggs.

8.) I again agree that Paul’s feeling towards his countrymen in Romans 10 is one of hopefulness for them. But this should not be surprising since Paul

a.) doesn’t know the status of individual Jews – Who is Spiritual Israel and Who is Israel after the flesh.
b.) Loves all of His people and desires for all of them to be brought into the Church

9.) I have dealt elsewhere in my comments about the branches being grafted in and out and I’ll leave the interested readers to find those comments should they so desire.
10.) All Calvinists believe that those who are hardened may become unhardened. Dr. Schenk seems to be making the error of thinking that the Jews in question in Romans 11 were originally softened. Israel after the flesh which was cast out of the Olive tree was never in a saving relationship with the Messiah, though they were like the ones spoken of in Hebrews 6 externally related. Israel after the flesh, having been around the Holy things for so long, was cast out of even that external relationship. Should they ever become softened they will be grafted back into that Olive tree with the difference being that they will now be in the new and better covenant. This is Calvinist theology.

11.) Dr. Schenk fails to realize that no orthodox Calvinist (including and especially St. Paul) has ever held that predestination had predictive force in the sense of being able to know who is predestined and who isn’t. We have never taught that people come with ‘E’ or ‘R’ branded on their forehead. Paul doesn’t give up on Israel because He knows that there is an Israel of God that is elect for salvation. (Romans 9:6)

Frankly, Dr. Schenk doesn’t know what Calvinist teach and so preferring instead to defeat a caricature he builds straw men and then labors assiduously to puff them over. Imagine how much work he would have to do if he ever really understood Calvinism. Dr. Schenk keeps using the word ‘Calvinism’ but I know that it does not mean what He thinks it means.

Finally, Dr. Schenk tries to seal the deal with Hebrews 10:29.

First, it should be noted that Calvinists have taught that people can fall from the covenant of Grace. Noting this is important since the context of Hebrews 10:29 finds just a comparison being made between the old and renewed covenant. Here we find a lesser to greater argument. If one died without mercy for rejecting Moses’ law how much more grievous will be the penalty of one who tramples the Son of God underfoot. However, we need to hear the language of Hebrews here. In this context the hypothetical person being referred to was ‘sanctified’ (that is ‘set apart’) by the blood of the covenant. Now we must ask; ‘How is it that this person was sanctified (set apart)? The answer is by being put into the covenant. This is the same covenant that throughout the Scripture is characterized as having wheat and tares in it. Now in as much as Christ died for the Church, everyone in the Church (wheat and tares alike) can be said to have had a ‘sacrifice for sins,’ and so it is true that should the wheat, being externally but really related to the one covenant of Grace, sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth (and lots of people have a non-saving knowledge of the truth – cmp. James 2:19) there is no sacrifice for sins.

Now the reason may be asked why we read this text this way.

1.) We cannot read this passage the way Dr. Schenk desires and remain faithful to the book of Hebrews where elsewhere the perseverance of the saints is upheld by the teaching that, “Therefore Jesus is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him.” Also after Hebrews 10 we are taught that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Now, if our faith doesn’t finish, then how can it be rightly said that Jesus is the finisher of our faith?


2.) We believe that the explanation above does honor to the covenant language of Scripture. Just as all of Israel was not of Israel, so all of the Church is not of the Church and yet, if a unregenerate person is a part of the Church then when speaking in corporate categories it is proper to say that Christ died for the Church and that includes all who are in the Church who are not of the Church. Just as on the Day of Atonement where the Sacrifice of the lamb was for all of Israel didn’t negate that ‘not all of Israel was of Israel’ so the Sacrifice of Jesus for the Church doesn’t negate that not all of the Church is of the Church. Just as there were those in the Old covenant who had a sacrifice preformed for them as being part of the covenantal whole that did not apply to them individually so there are some in the Church who had a sacrifice preformed for them as part of the covenantal whole at Calvary that does not apply to them individually. But of course we do not know who those are and so if some in our congregations were to sin willfully after they had received a knowledge of the truth we would have to warn them that there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment."

OnceAWesleyan

Ken Schenck said...

Duly noted.

I'm going to archive at least my comments on my archive site. Would you be willing for me to archive your comments as well? I promise not to edit the content (unless, of course, you want to). It will all read better as continuous text.

Anonymous said...

Well, I do wish there was a way for me to correct some of the typographical and grammatical errors that were made in the flurry of typing.

But I imagine that is impossible.

This is your site. I posted here well knowing that my comments were public property. You may do with my comments what you would like.

But should it all be archived I would like to round it off by speaking of my eternal thankfulness to God for the Wesleyans. My bone with them is not a great deal different in type then Paul's bone with his brethren.

It was among the Wesleyans that I came into covenant by way of sprinkling. It was among the Wesleyans that I first learned Jesus. It was the Wesleyans who protected me, housed me, and fed me at some crucial moments in early life. It was Wesleyans that educated me and taught me to begin to think. It was Wesleyans that ordained me. While among the Wesleyans I met she who would become my wife. Bonds of friendship still exist among them.

So my earnest disagreement with the Wesleyans perhaps is colored by my continued sense of obligation to them. If not talking Theology, and when not giving them grief, I have always found them to be a kind hearted people.

Pax,

OAW